tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post3190870758066899212..comments2024-03-09T03:49:50.699-05:00Comments on Your Critic is in Another Castle: Let's talk about sex!K. Coxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06554183349391372039noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-13255967549301557362012-01-13T08:21:08.120-05:002012-01-13T08:21:08.120-05:00Sorry for the comments thread necromancy - I playe...Sorry for the comments thread necromancy - I played the first Fable game to death and was tickled pink when I realised the male NPC could both flirt with and marry other male NPCs, there's also (if memory serves), a brothel based side quest that's played very much in the vein of the old Carry On films which leaves your NPC waking up and walking around looking lost and forlorn in nothing but a pair of Union Jack undies.<br /><br />And the ME2 post game snuggles, god the awkward unintentional comedy of those things, mind the results of getting Kelly up to Shepard's cabin are a little more... unfortunate 0_oFurtlednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-69513330732974045962011-09-06T10:47:12.170-04:002011-09-06T10:47:12.170-04:00i use action movies as a comparison because, for t...<i>i use action movies as a comparison because, for the most part, our <br />games are centered around conflict and violence, rather than on <br />relationships.</i><br /><br />That kind of hits the nail on the head, doesn't it. There are games out there now that are centered on relationship-based conflict rather than violence-based conflict but you know, I'm forced to admit that I haven't necessarily found any of them to sound interesting enough to play.<br /><br />Guess I'm part of the problem here, heh.K. Coxhttp://www.your-critic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-8462196610496371922011-09-06T10:45:45.382-04:002011-09-06T10:45:45.382-04:00Thanks! I had a lot of fun meeting everyone too. ...Thanks! I had a lot of fun meeting everyone too. :)<br /><br />Also, good point on the Brathwaite book. Somehow I'd managed to forget she'd covered this ground at all.K. Coxhttp://www.your-critic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-86012034480093423802011-09-03T17:28:04.555-04:002011-09-03T17:28:04.555-04:00If anyone wants to read a fascinating history on t...If anyone wants to read a fascinating history on the subject, I recommend checking out the rather obviously titled "Sex in Video Games" by Brenda Brathwaite. <br /><br />BTW, it was nice meeting you on Wednesday, Kate!SirOliverMartextnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-52545050499447991512011-09-01T12:59:28.909-04:002011-09-01T12:59:28.909-04:00i don't think video games are all that differe...i don't think video games are all that different from, say, action movies, when it comes to sex and romance. i use action movies as a comparison because, for the most part, our games are centered around conflict and violence, rather than on relationships.<br /><br />so unless a game specifically designs itself around the encounter, the sexytime option will always be something peripheral to the core of the game's narrative. because it's an <i>option</i>.<br /><br />there are some games that don't give you a choice. if i remember correctly, <i>fahrenheit/indigo prophecy</i> doesn't even ask you if you want the (creepy, egregious) sex scene in the final chapter (i could be wrong about this, though. the first sex scene, which is actually quite natural and justified by the relationship between the two characters, is optional). and i'm okay with that, too, in the way that i'm okay with having no choice about what comes next in a movie. it's not my story; these aren't my choices.<br /><br />it's when i <i>do</i> have the choice that games are kind of missing the mark. i need to think more on this.<br /><br />(though the more i think about it, the more i appreciate the first fade-to-black scene from <i>indigo prophecy</i>. i can't think of another game that has written a recently broken-up couple, who like real life people have complicated feelings toward each other, who sleep together in a moment of loneliness and vulnerability [loneliness and vulnerability on both sides]. everything that happens afterward is suspect, but the actual encounter leading up to the rekindled romance is quite believable, if a little bit clunky in terms of game mechanics. much, much, MUCH better than anything in <i>heavy rain</i>.)enstarstarstarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-18271358081665378222011-09-01T09:00:29.675-04:002011-09-01T09:00:29.675-04:00Dragon Age 2 was a lot better in so many ways, the...Dragon Age 2 was a lot better in so many ways, the romance primary among them. Of course, the fact that I hated what passed for romance in DA:O so damn much probably played into that. The fact that you could explicitly try and flirt with characters that you have no possible shot with is a nice addition.Stephen Winsonhttp://goodbadawesome.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-20360033016771077642011-09-01T01:32:28.659-04:002011-09-01T01:32:28.659-04:00Another major problem that you run into with relat...Another major problem that you run into with relationships and sex (especially the casual kind) is the question of story utility. What does this scene tell us about this character that is new or compelling?<br /><br />I've always found Mass Effect's approach to romance to be incredibly creepy, not because of the commoditization of it (although a very good point!) but because the characters basically fall out of character as soon as the topic comes up. The normally tight lipped Shepard comes out of nowhere with a bizarrely sleazy come on, which apparently establishes the romantic interest, and it culminates in a painfully corny scene that would seem to be written by someone guessing at how these things actually work.<br /><br />The major exception is Garrus, whose Paramour scene is actually really touching, and does tell us something new about him: how he copes with tragedy when the wound is fresh. I was really surprised by it, given how cornball the subplot was up until that point. None of the other characters' consumation scenes seem to have anything important to tell us about the people involved. (But have you seen Jacob's scene? My god, I'd have pulled an Alan Smithee if I'd written that.)<br /><br />But outside of the dating sims, I can't think of games that have done better jobs. Persona 3 and Persona 4 are famous for their relationship stuff, but they ultimately reduce all relationships to a level of "spend time with this guy and always agree with him until you're best friends." And once you get into games like Fable where the main character is strictly an avatar, all of this goes out the window. I can't even fathom how you could make that compelling. Commander Shepard actually has a lot of autonomy from the player and can pick out the right words to indicate our will. An avatar can't.<br /><br />All of which is to say, if you don't feel like sleeping, there's a guy on youtube named Agsii1 who likes to edit scenes from ME2, especially the romance bits, and make them deliciously weird. Here's a less frightening one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsgfJA1BuzE This is obviously the future of romance in video games.heroofthebeachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-44883322280082116712011-09-01T00:11:08.981-04:002011-09-01T00:11:08.981-04:00definitely agree that dragon age is an interesting...definitely agree that dragon age is an interesting example here. not only do characters have set orientations (though the same-sex options are pretty limited), but the concept of casual sex vs relationship sex is addressed as well. the player can "romance" zevran or morrigan to the point of triggering a sex scene while simultaneously (or subsequently) romancing another character without getting a jealous reaction. the other romanceable characters, however, will confront the pc about what's going on and what your intentions are if you choose to engage in multiple romances. while not very diversified, it's an interesting attempt to give the npcs a sense of agency within their relationships.Tvethiopianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-23080300212290921032011-08-31T23:16:45.286-04:002011-08-31T23:16:45.286-04:00Haha, yes. And we all know I see games not as they...Haha, yes. And we all know I see games not as they are, but as their descendants might be.Linehttp://linehollis.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-44883022707555871282011-08-31T23:11:49.537-04:002011-08-31T23:11:49.537-04:00You're right, but it barely felt like anything...You're right, but it barely felt like anything. It was kinda like a "Oh, someone slept over for the past year or so!" You party only slightly gossiped. But we all know I'm extra harsh, especially on DA :PMattie Bricehttp://twitter.com/xGalateanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-23935671297369430712011-08-31T23:07:35.734-04:002011-08-31T23:07:35.734-04:00To be fair, Dragon Age 2 does allow you to have a ...To be fair, Dragon Age 2 does allow you to have a long-term relationship that runs alongside the main story. They don't deal with it in that much depth, but like you say, it's a step forward.Linehttp://linehollis.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-22247453350952447282011-08-31T22:27:39.028-04:002011-08-31T22:27:39.028-04:00Fable III (and from what I recall, Fable II as wel...Fable III (and from what I recall, Fable II as well) does play the level-up-your-relationships card like many other games do. What is in its favor, I think, is not only what you've pointed out, that virtually half of the adults in the game are potential partners, depending on how you want to play your character, but that ... well ... not sure if you want me to avoid spoilers, but let's just say that you'll find that it's basically split right down the middle. The leveling-up aspect is still present and sadly more obvious as you progress with your relationship(s), but then you have a remarkable amount of freedom with respect to the number and gender of your partner(s). <br /><br />Credit is due, I think, for openly acknowledging that sometimes people prefer same-sex partners, and for not building in any bias toward those people (that I could find). The problem with the rest of it is what I think other people are touching on: it's hard to put actual relationship mechanics in a game, especially when you have a very limited number of possible interactions with a person. It basically comes down to memorization, rather than interaction: to date NPC Jane, do A, B, and R; to date NPC Rick, do C, R, and W ... I suppose it's possible to build in some bit of reality by not having NPCs respond the same way to the same actions each time, but I don't know if that would make any difference in a game like Fable III. <br /><br />Dragon Age, maybe, was a better example of this? It wasn't just about holding hands, running stupid errands, and handing over trinkets that just happened to be pulled out of the pockets of people you killed recently. You had to find different approaches to woo different characters, and you couldn't necessarily woo them all at once. In fact, sometimes (frequently?) you'd please one potential partner and upset another at the same time. (I feel like you've addressed this about Dragon Age: Origins ... I don't mean to make you repeat yourself.) <br /><br />And maybe some of this is because I am a huge Claudia Black fan (and will never forgive the former SciFi Channel for ending Farscape a season too early), and thus had no choice but to pursue Morrigan, but there were times in DA:O when I felt less like I was looking for optimal choices and more like I was interacting with another character ... trying to figure out what she "wanted". She talks about this ... maybe she'd like this as a gift? (And liking it when she did, in fact, appreciate something I'd given her.) It is, of course, as little of the actual interaction between men and women as playing Rock Band is compared to playing an actual guitar or keyboard or bass, but it's something more than "dance with NPC to start relationship quest." <br /><br />Plus, there was something to Morrigan's character that maybe wasn't actually agency, but something that made her more than just Stock Female NPC ... at least on the decision trees that I ended up following, there was only so much she was interested in, and that was that, and it didn't matter what I thought. It was nice to know that in DA:O, I did not have control over every situation. (In Fable III, as you'll find out if you like, the situation can be very, very different ...)zlionsfannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-47624008456918202112011-08-31T20:03:27.078-04:002011-08-31T20:03:27.078-04:00I think it centers around seeing relationships as ...I think it centers around seeing relationships as achievements in video games, which is why a lot of people were intrigued by Catherine showing a relationship already in progress. This also might not count, but my recent playthrough of Choices of Romance featured a good amount of time after I had 'chosen' (I didn't feel like I explicitly chose anyone, and didn't know I was going to end up pregnant x.x) and it was interesting to see how I had to adapt to the world after this decision was made. I went through the game wanting personal power and influence, and didn't really love any of the characters. It seemed like it was inevitable that I was getting married, so I got to decide what that meant. I chose for my character as a means to have a say in politics. She was a little manipulative, but in the end, all she was seen as was a romance-able object, baby-maker, and money bags. It was super interesting to go about relationships in a system that didn't require love, though the game ended up making choices for me I didn't want (having sex at the time I did, entering a relationship, and getting knocked up [though, as a side note, wouldn't it be interesting for a random even to end up with a child and have to go on from there? Hmm...]). I remember realizing what that article you cited did when I was trying to find a good dating-sim to play, and realized they reproduced the parts of out gender roles that has men doing favors for the assurance of sex, and women with-holding sex until the man jumps through enough hoops. I felt similarly about Mass Effect; there was nothing particular about my Shepard that was attractive to my team-mates other than being talked to without being a complete jerk. I think both ideas of exploring a game after attaining a relationship and having relationships begin under other circumstances that chatting after every mission would be a nice step forward.Mattie Bricehttp://twitter.com/xGalateanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-7048270002558808442011-08-31T12:59:14.989-04:002011-08-31T12:59:14.989-04:00Well, there are sort of two separate forces at wor...Well, there are sort of two separate forces at work there. One is the presence of realistic romantic relationships, and the other -- which is sort of a subset of the first, but not entirely -- is the presence and treatment of casual sex.<br /><br />We tend to go for the former, across games. And actually, not just across games, but across all the stories we tend to tell in modern Western popular media. Which probably has a lot to do with the major hang-ups we have around casual sex, particularly for women and, by extension, female characters.<br /><br />As for "hard to write well", I'll give a big' ol cosign there. It's hard to write <i>people</i> very well and games have an additional layer of challenge on top of film and TV in that regard, due to player ability to change character behavior. A strike against the existence of casual sex in games is in fact the difficulty of adding unrelated or irrelevant content, in general: how much easier to script in 2-3 potential romances rather than a world full of hookups?K. Coxhttp://www.your-critic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-75934722350210376122011-08-31T12:13:47.069-04:002011-08-31T12:13:47.069-04:00I think you're totally right that sex in games...I think you're totally right that sex in games is generally seen as a 'reward' for a particular set of interactions with that npc and not something that is just a smaller part of a larger relationship. Given the rather juvenile mindset with which most games approach sexuality, I'm pretty sure this surprises no one. I suspect the 'reward' label is part of it as well though, given things like achievements and item/feature unlocks, rewarding the player with in-game stuff is a pretty popular formula these days and your character's sex life is another avenue for that. <br /><br />I'd probably also say that it's just plain hard to write realistic relationships into games, especially when you're dealing multiple gender/species/orientation combinations - that just gets complicated, especially when it's likely you will need to tie each possible relationship into the larger story line to make it feel like a cohesive part of the game. That's not to excuse the games that handle it poorly, but there are not a whole lot of games with good writing in general and this is just that much harder to do well.I doubt there's one ideal way to treat sex that would apply across all games and genres but assuming there is a game (probably an RPG of some sort) which is capable of treating the subject matter decently, what would you like to see? intangirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-46688469565223288012011-08-31T10:23:15.769-04:002011-08-31T10:23:15.769-04:00addressed in my pixels.
That sounds magnificently...<i>addressed in my pixels.</i><br /><br />That sounds magnificently dirty.RedJennyhttp://unwarr.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-29353631385612768402011-08-31T10:18:04.004-04:002011-08-31T10:18:04.004-04:00I don't think of the Leisure Suit Larry games ...I don't think of the <i>Leisure Suit Larry</i> games as counting. I mean, yeah, they're about sex, but they're also <i>about</i> sex, y'know? I mean, they're about this idiot who strikes out with ladies managing to advance with ladies. So sure, it comes up a lot (usually in the most juvenile, innuendo-laden ways possible) but it doesn't have that same sort of... organic? ... quality that "romance or not, sex or not" does in games that aren't actually about the game of getting laid.K. Coxhttp://www.your-critic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-9629800337379726522011-08-31T10:06:38.465-04:002011-08-31T10:06:38.465-04:00Indigo Prophecy had a sex scene that was cut in th...Indigo Prophecy had a sex scene that was cut in the US version. And Fable 2 is basically the Captain Jack of video games. Wasn't sex also a plot feature of the Leisure Suit Larry games? Been a very long time since I played those. (Someone sneaked them onto one of the macs assigned to our AP biology class.)garpunoreply@blogger.com