tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post3361581113337668952..comments2024-03-09T03:49:50.699-05:00Comments on Your Critic is in Another Castle: The Gamer's Gaze, part 1K. Coxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06554183349391372039noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-88148289113182001182011-12-01T07:31:37.150-05:002011-12-01T07:31:37.150-05:00Engage in good faith or not at all. There are goo...Engage in good faith or not at all. There <i>are</i> good arguments to be made about the appalling way in which male sexual abuse victims are treated, but these aren't them.K. Coxhttp://www.your-critic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-491034825972320132011-12-01T00:49:38.475-05:002011-12-01T00:49:38.475-05:00"In a world ordered by sexual imbalance"..."In a world ordered by sexual imbalance"<br /><br /><br />Where women are the ones in power, while simultaneously being the ones to protect.<br /><br />There are laws that let women change their mind AFTER sex about it being consensual.<br /><br />Especially if she had any alcohol in her, or the man lied about how rich he is.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Read this article about male rape victims FINALLY getting help, and how <br />people simply told them to suck it up. <br />http://www.thespec.com/iphone/news/article/631730<br /><br />Look at all the cases of female pedophiles getting away with it cause everyone thinks the man wanted it.<br /> <br />Men hold no real power in this society. Sexual or otherwise.punkchobitnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-23031429005100313552011-07-08T11:13:37.934-04:002011-07-08T11:13:37.934-04:00The number of living women with a Lara Croft physi...The number of living women with a Lara Croft physique is vanishingly small. There are so few, in fact, that "men's magazines" resorted to surgically-enhanced women years ago. I agree with you on "male gaze" as a "system" but think that game designers are simply aiming at a broad class of immature males. IME, women reach maturity around 25, males around 30, personal experience obviously varies. The "games are aimed at 12 year olds" thing is a bit of a trope. Thirty and under males form a huge market.<br /><br />The business-speak irony is that digital gaming is a "maturing market". Corporate budgets took over awhile back. Game publishers set sales targets based on historic performance, which dictates largely formulaic product development. Every industry travels through a cycle of innovation, technology proliferation, market exploitation and then terminal obsolescence. The simple fact that digital gaming is discussed as an <i>industry</i> is telling. Technology deployment is governed by financial objectives. It's a lot safer and cheaper to draw up some eye candy than to make a bet like L.A. Noire.<br /><br />Let's extend that a bit. I'm on record expressing distaste for the GTA series. Yet GTA profits were reinvested in what appears to be a bold gamble. I can only respect RSG for its pro-innovation bias (while still seeing GTA as cheap & gratuitous market exploitation).<br /><br />"...because society kept telling him he should want the latter". <br /><br />"Society dictates behavior" smells like another trope. I see the pathology you cite as an expression of personal deficiency in a minority of males. Past generations had their own Lara Crofts (e.g., Barbara Eden) and they grew up to find happiness with women who didn't fit the mold. <br /><br />I think your former bf struggled with the onset of maturity. Granted, the current 25-35 generation has a greater percentage of delayed-development males and, conversely, a larger share of confident & balanced women. Ratios are likely the inverse seen two generations ago. Religion also plays a smaller role in the lives of educated women than 30-40 years ago, a huge positive and causative factor, IMO.TheRavennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-68126132199299527922011-07-08T09:31:26.634-04:002011-07-08T09:31:26.634-04:00The thing is, all of this -- what you and RedJenny...The thing is, all of this -- what you and RedJenny and DocJay and Stephen Winson have all discussed across the trio of posts -- is what <i>specific</i> men actually find attractive. And that's going to vary from man to man. (For starters, some men don't prefer women at all...)<br /><br />But the whole concept and construct of "male gaze" isn't designed for a specific man. It's designed for a <i>system</i> that's populated by and controlled by a theoretical single "male" perspective. In truth, it doesn't benefit most individual men any better than it benefits most women. I used to date a guy who felt like he was somehow "doing it wrong" for preferring my physical type over the Lara Croft type, because society kept telling him he should want the latter. Does the male gaze help him? Oh hell no.K. Coxhttp://www.your-critic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-84555208077817037912011-07-08T00:41:05.308-04:002011-07-08T00:41:05.308-04:00Duck me? No, Duck You!Duck me? No, Duck <i>You</i>!TheRavenhttp://theravenspoke.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-32495452852554789682011-07-08T00:27:01.987-04:002011-07-08T00:27:01.987-04:00You're a weird duck, Raven.You're a weird duck, Raven.RedJennyhttp://unwarr.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-2126494153236040642011-07-07T22:28:24.613-04:002011-07-07T22:28:24.613-04:00I played ME2 all the way through. Not once have I ...I played ME2 all the way through. Not once have I found ME2's renderings of the female form noteworthy. Results clearly indicate we're looking at the channeled imaginations of younger males (most of them likely "relationship-challenged"). I conceptually understand their intent but can't muster a visceral reaction. This isn't about age, experience or maturity. I didn't think comic books provided stimulating imagery years ago, when hormones were in overdrive. My gaming experience is limited by choice and I avoid overtly sexual fare like GTA. Voyuerism is a cheap substitute for good design, IMO.TheRavenhttp://theravenspoke.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-62011746501805468522011-07-07T22:28:08.398-04:002011-07-07T22:28:08.398-04:00Nah. Her attitude makes her sexy. It's all abo...Nah. Her attitude makes her sexy. It's all about attainability. Her voice and face are well-matched. Her other physical attributes are comically obvious. Miranda becomes a lot less hot when she falls apart. Her persona is poorly suited for vulnerability. I think that's the point of her character, "tough chick fallacy" or some such (no linguistic puns intended with "fallacy"; I know how you think, RJ).TheRavenhttp://theravenspoke.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-6679472889631522322011-07-03T03:00:00.465-04:002011-07-03T03:00:00.465-04:00I don't actually remember ever recognizing Mir...I don't actually remember ever recognizing Miranda as a seductress. She mentioned that her father had her genetically programmed to be attractive (creepy layered on creepy) to give her an additional advantage, but she's not flirty like Yeoman Kelly or sultry like Morrigan or passably polite like say Wrex. It may be clumsy implementation of her all business attitude, but she comes across to me as downright rude to the point of insubordinate, thinly justified as strict professionalism. I've played through as a paragon lady who at best felt sorry for Miranda and a renegade dude who wanted to bed her basically as an Achievement but I don't think I ever felt that that homegirl was trying to charm, seduce or befriend Shepard. RedJennyhttp://unwarr.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-57760491572312627222011-06-23T22:54:59.930-04:002011-06-23T22:54:59.930-04:00If I remember AP Psych, and I don't, consent a...If I remember AP Psych, and I don't, consent and voyeurism don't mix. Voyeurism presumes an element of spying unseen.RedJennyhttp://unwarr.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-39693782296778945562011-06-23T13:39:45.856-04:002011-06-23T13:39:45.856-04:00I wrote before about Miranda, Jack, and Asari stri...I <a href="http://www.your-critic.com/2011/05/sashaying-through-normandy.html" rel="nofollow">wrote before</a> about Miranda, Jack, and Asari strippers. I actually don't think of Jack as particularly created to titillate; her character is, rather, transgressive and aggressive about it. (Starting from the male name, then carrying through the rather flat-chested design and the shaved head, removing most iconic female markers from her design, then getting to the tattoos, uniform, etc.<br /><br />I do most heartily grant that Miranda (and Kasumi) pretty much are the walking incarnation of the male gaze. And that they keep relying on the naive ingenue trope (in ME1 Liara and Tali in both games) drives me up a wall. But still, as compared to a huge swath of other games, ME2 is still male-gaze-lite. And a huge part of that, I think, is what Line <a href="http://www.your-critic.com/2011/06/tomb-raider.html#comment-228242127" rel="nofollow">described here</a>, re: gender-neutral protagonist design.<br /><br />In short, while ME2 certainly has the male gaze in its camera, I'm not so sure it generally emphazises that in the <i>player's</i> gaze, with some exceptions (which stand out). And that's the difference that I hope to be able to tackle successfully in part 2. We'll see if I succeed or not. ;)<br /><br />[Edit: Also that's Kasumi, the DLC character, and not Tali. Tali's not actually physically sexualized in that way but she does have a host of potential other squicky issues, depending how you play.]K. Coxhttp://www.your-critic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-11459502679004934972011-06-23T13:39:45.322-04:002011-06-23T13:39:45.322-04:00The thing is, there really is a dangerous "lo...The thing is, there really <i>is</i> a dangerous "look." It's one that's lavicious, that puts you in your place as a woman, and that most girls over 16 know not to court because of its implicit threats. But of course, we don't have to court it; most of the times I've been on the receiving end of that look, I've been simply walking home (in NY / Boston) or walking to the Metro (in DC). It's part and parcel of having the audacity to be female in public, and it's really, really uncomfortable.<br /><br />Looking itself shouldn't be patholigized, you are correct, and appreciation is all well and good. (I will not deny what my gaze does when confronted with, say, a Johnny Depp. *fans self*) But the appreciative glance is not the same as the sustained, uninvited stare. One is a guy checking you out, and probably trying not to be seen doing it. It's an aesthetic reaction and a normal human response. The other is a power imbalance, objectifying.<br /><br />What we have had in cinema and now in gaming is the sustained, uninvited, voyeuristic stare. Miranda invites that stare, by deliberately using her sexuality as a tool. (Or rather, to discuss it properly, the game's designers have written and modeled a sexpot and script her to behave according to adolescent male fantasy.) But not all female characters who receive that voyeuristic "look" court it in the narrative.K. Coxhttp://www.your-critic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-51019923997221536172011-06-22T07:09:02.709-04:002011-06-22T07:09:02.709-04:00I certainly don't want to invalidate your opin...I certainly don't want to invalidate your opinion or experience -- I think it's interesting that you experienced that. I also think it's interesting that I definitely started ME2 feeling like it was a LOT more fanservicey than ME1 (in the first 5 - 10 hours, I bitched about it extensively to Husband) but then that wore off as the game's focus shifted.<br /><br />As for the fancy expert background - it mostly just gives me words to explain something we all know innately. :)K. Coxhttp://www.your-critic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-7360760907364978412011-06-21T19:08:34.932-04:002011-06-21T19:08:34.932-04:00Excuse me, I never played Kasumi's DLC so I as...Excuse me, I never played Kasumi's DLC so I assumed Tali. I'm with you on Jack's nudity fitting into context better than most, but remember the conversation with the Scottish engineers?<br /><br /><br />Anyway, you're the one with the knowledge of theory and experience with gaming so I won't argue with you. I'll just say that I do feel like Mass Effect panders to the 13yo boy that's supposed to be my gaming ego even beyond Miranda. RedJennyhttp://unwarr.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-69416604906292085942011-06-21T12:36:57.581-04:002011-06-21T12:36:57.581-04:00This is good stuff, stuff we men don't really ...This is good stuff, stuff we men don't really know. There's a linguistic problem here, there aren't really words to describe the difference. I would really like some women writers to step up to this and develop some language that highlights the difference.<br /><br />I would point out that there are certain social situations where one is invited to stare, to engage in voyeurism, where the person being looked at is consenting. Behind the camera it's common, but there are other places.DoctorJaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-5800847360597796952011-06-21T01:12:33.771-04:002011-06-21T01:12:33.771-04:00The game in question does a fairly good job of avo...<i>The game in question does a fairly good job of avoiding such egregious fanservice in general</i><br /><br /><br />Really? Not to be more Catholic than the Pope, but I thought Mass Effect (which I *adore*) was pretty heavy on fan service. Miranda certainly takes things to a whole 'nother level, but I'm still hung up on the most powerful race in the galaxy (which is theoretically non-gendered (*phhhbt*)) spending most of its time stripping for males of lesser species. You posted Tali's picture, and there's Samara who certainly doesn't seem like a seductress but who runs around the galaxy in heels. Jack is nearly naked. When you sign up to fight Archangel as FemShep the Batarian suggests you strip instead. There's the girl-girl hookup option but no guy-guy. Compared to Dragon Age Origins, where only one NPC (including recruitable and non-recruitable characters) is sorta-seductively dressed and "the slutty one" is a male elf, ME seems to drip with male fanservice.RedJennyhttp://unwarr.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-10197925800757571192011-06-20T18:25:19.674-04:002011-06-20T18:25:19.674-04:00Well, it seems to me that Miranda's behavior i...Well, it seems to me that Miranda's behavior is less of a problem than some other examples, like Lara's screaming and moaning. It's in-character after all, and I may be wrong, but maybe even in character for her in the case of FemShepard. Some femmes seduce other women that way, don't they?<br /><br />As I said in reply to Ophelia, my problem is far more with the language than with the concept. <br /><br />To take it in a different direction, I can think of a few noteworthy moments of "female gaze" in film. Bond coming out of the ocean in "Casino Royale" for example. There's an extended shot of the entirely naked Brad Pitt in "Troy" that comes to mind, too. There's a fair bit of it in "Thor" as well, if not as overt. <br /><br />I bring this up to reject both "That's cool, more of that" and "Let's get rid of all of it." My position is, "Does this work within the framework of this piece of art? Does it get to truth?" Those examples, I think, worked fantastically well.<br /><br />To me the criticism is much simpler and more direct if you say, like @Andy did, "Since when is Lara Croft a coward?"DoctorJaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-76166943891713154392011-06-20T18:15:05.077-04:002011-06-20T18:15:05.077-04:00It's not so much that I don't understand w...It's not so much that I don't understand what you and K are talking about, but that I object to the language. Why not "male camera" or "male viewpoint"? <br /><br />To call it a "gaze" pathologizes looking at one another. If I look at another woman and feel desirous, then I am transgressive, regardless of how interested the makers of the art were in having me feel that desire. Do we really want a world wherein nobody looks at anyone else with desire, ever?<br /><br />I think there is a linguistic problem between women and men when it comes to the word "looking". I once had a discussion with a woman who had successfully sued her former high-tech company for sexual harassment. She was describing some of the things that had happened to her. One of them was, she said, "I would be walking through the office and they would be looking at me." She said "looking" with some emphasis. I was supposed to know what that meant, but I had no clue.<br /><br />"Er," says I, "There's a certain amount of, um, admiration that just goes on."<br /><br />"Oh not that!" she replied, "I mean they were staring at me and making faces, leering."<br /><br />So it isn't "looking" that's the issue.<br /><br />I've got a long essay in my head about this. The short version is, I call some aspects of this nothing more than bad art, lacking in truth. A female ninja superheroine simply <i>would not look like that</i>. The Queen of Qeynos would not <a href="http://toldaintalks.blogspot.com/2008/04/whos-that-girl.html" rel="nofollow">look like a stripper</a>.<br /><br />Referring to the problem as a problem of "male gaze" confuses the issue about who the perpetrators are.DoctorJaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-49091947540308874522011-06-20T13:54:27.798-04:002011-06-20T13:54:27.798-04:00K. handled this pretty deftly, but think of it thi...K. handled this pretty deftly, but think of it this way: the camera, in most film, is meant to hold the eyes of the audience. And when that camera does the classic "introduce female by starting at the legs and slowly rising over every inch of her body before seeing her face," it's assuming the eyes of the audience will see her as attractive. The female viewer, the gay viewer, the asexual viewer aren't considered as actually being in the audience. Instead, everyone watching "checks out" new attractive females whether or not the individual audience members would be attracted to them.<br /><br />Folks who are attracted to women [particularly femme women] don't usually notice it. But the idea of the "gaze" is partially to emphasize how female and queer desire is erased even in something as fundamental as camera angles.Ophelianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-20713837778114447532011-06-20T13:32:39.259-04:002011-06-20T13:32:39.259-04:00Well, the reason it stands out -- the reason we se...Well, the reason it stands out -- the reason we see it at all -- is because it's so clumsy, and ham-fisted, and out of character. The game in question does a fairly good job of avoiding such egregious fanservice in general, and so it's very easy to cite this one example of a place where they fail like whoa. In context of <i>Mass Effect 2</i>, it's a big, "WTF?"<br /><br />On the other hand, it's so endemic to some other media that you only notice when it doesn't happen, or when it stops happening. Or, worse, you just don't notice it at all, because to do so would be like noticing that you have air to breathe.K. Coxhttp://www.your-critic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-28783669908550293302011-06-20T13:12:50.871-04:002011-06-20T13:12:50.871-04:00Why are we looking at it?
Because the developers ...<i>Why are we looking at it?</i><br /><br />Because the developers shoved it in our faces, at least in that instance. Not exactly the best use of the cinematic camera in video game history. The choice of camera angle doesn't make sense in context of the game, it doesn't make sense when the camera is pointed at Miranda from Shepard's perspective previously in the scene. You move from a scene where she's leaning on something, looking hunched over, like she's got something stressful on her mind (which she does) and the camera basically just switches to a shot of her ass until you make a choice. Shepard's eyes are looking up, toward her face. His head isn't tilted down to look at her ass. The director just decided that to force the player to look there.<br /><br />Now, it's possible that the director intended to allude to Miranda trying to seduce Shepard (since it's been established that she uses her engineered looks when she wants to) but it's the least seductive hunch I've ever seen if that's the case.Stephen Winsonhttp://goodbadawesome.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-38782460331962416192011-06-20T12:34:41.307-04:002011-06-20T12:34:41.307-04:00Well, bear in mind the background from which it ca...Well, bear in mind the background from which it came: Freudian and Lacanian analysis of cinema, and specifically cinema. In fact, the allusion to voyeurism is deliberate and intended.<br /><br />But actually, we're literally dealing with looking here, and so "gaze" fits. What are we looking at? (Miranda's ass.) Why are we looking at it? (Because she's been given an in-character reason to be a seductress, because the artists like creating a seductress, and because the seductress is likely to appeal to the audience.) How are we looking at it? (Framed boldly, with Shepard giving an appreciative glance.)<br /><br />There's a definite straight white male bias built into a lot of our media too, but the literal gaze is important.K. Coxhttp://www.your-critic.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-66962782819384210592011-06-20T12:31:11.926-04:002011-06-20T12:31:11.926-04:00Thanks for the rundown. The terminology - the us...Thanks for the rundown. The terminology - the use of the word "gaze" - seems problematic. Wouldn't "viewpoint" or "bias" suit better? Meh. I need to think more about this.DoctorJaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-886868484666652260.post-88108034687738755862011-06-20T12:10:45.666-04:002011-06-20T12:10:45.666-04:00I'd never noticed the 'posing at the hip&#...I'd never noticed the 'posing at the hip' thing before, but it's a good descriptor. I mean, the poses were obviously sexualized, but I couldn't put my finger on why. This is mostly in relevance to the comic post @ TNCs today had me scanning some old, pre-swimsuit costume comics and noting that (at least in the late 80s) the 'posing at the hip' stuff was everywhere.Andyhttp://onefinemess.rhinopanda.net/noreply@blogger.com